Welcome to Common Gunsense

I hope this blog will provoke some thoughtful reflection about the issue of guns and gun violence. I am passionate about the issue and would love to change some misperceptions and the culture of gun violence in America by sharing with readers words, photos, videos and clips from articles to promote common sense about gun issues. Many of you will agree with me- some will not. I am only one person but one among many who think it's time to do something about this national problem. The views expressed by me in this blog do not represent any group with which I am associated but are rather my own personal opinions and thoughts.
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Friday, February 11, 2011

NRA's numbers don't add up- Part 2

It sure is amazing how the thread of the comments here on my blog can go quickly from the subject of my post to things the "gun guys" want me to believe or want me to change in order for any support from them. It rarely goes the other way. The numbers just don't add up as the "facts" keep coming from the NRA and it's foot soldiers. Try as they might, and they make a vociferous case, more guns just simply do not equal less crime or less shootings. This editorial about the ATF plan to curb U.S. gun sales to Mexico says it about as well as anything I could say here. For the NRA- some gun dealers+requirements to report multiple rifle sales=onerous burden for gun owners. 


And speaking of numbers and whether or not they add up, check out this article about the salary paid to NRA Executive VP Wayne LaPierre. Do the many loyal members of the NRA really know about the huge salaries paid to the executives of the organization? Is this O.K. with them? That's a heck of a salary for someone who promulgates fear and paranoia and stands in the way of common sense legislation to reduce gun deaths. How does this add up for the average NRA member? The article points out that just Wayne LaPierre's salary alone $1.18 million = 35,000 NRA memberships. Speaking of LaPierre:
  • LaPierre at CPAC conference- good guys + guns=stopping bad guys with guns...
  • LaPierre at CPAC conference- government + policies= "getting us killed"...
  • LaPierre at CPAC conference- gun-free zones + safety=" condemned the victims to death without so much as a prayer.""...
  • LaPierre at CPAC conference- gun control advocates + support for large capacity ammo magazine bans=clowns...
  • LaPierre at CPAC conference- paranoia + fear= ""as soon as you leave these halls, your life is in jeopardy.""...
  • LaPierre at CPAC conference- protests in Egypt + second amendment= " "the presence of a firearm" in the hands of good people "makes us all safer.""...
  • LaPierre at CPAC showing film of Charlton Heston- media coverage + shooting tragedies= pornography...
Here's another one. The Florida "Shoot First" law+ armed midnight blogger=murder of 18 year old. The Florida "Shoot First" law + paranoia and no need for evidence= getting away with murder.


1 unlocked loaded gun + 1 child acting in "self defense"=1 gun injury of his sister...

1 law abiding Texas gun owner + cleaning said gun=1 dead 24 year old student gun owner..

1 state ( Montana) +NRA + one law maker who claims that:"to fill the gap between community service organizations, such as a neighborhood watch program and the Montana national guard, and to provide the state and its local communities with the ability to call upon trained and organized volunteers when necessary resources are otherwise unavailable.""= 1 scary idea + armed citizen paramilitaries roaming the streets of Montana with guns...


And from the "gun guys" in Virginia comes this "logic": ban on large capacity magazines + "deranged people"=inevitable use of napalm bombs, box cutters, igniting gasoline, etc. to commit crimes= the ever ubiquitous "slippery slope"...


This young high school student had the nerve to write something about gun violence including a whole lot of numbers included in her opening paragraph: " As of 2009, the United States has a population of 307 million people. Of the 307 million people living in the United States there are roughly 300 million firearms owned by civilians, and about 100 million are handguns. In 2008, roughly 16,272 murders were committed, and about 67% were committed with firearms. On Sunday January 8, 2011 six people were shot dead by Jared Loughner. In addition to the six killed fourteen people were injured. Loughner legally bought his Glock 19 from Walmart. The Glock 19 was the same weapon that Seung-Hui Cho used to kill thirty two students at Virgina Tech three years ago." But the ever vigilant "gun guys" went on the attack in the comments section following the girl's blog. Innocent girl writes blog+ facts about guns and gun violence= gun guys attacking facts and statements made...        


This Time magazine article used the numbers that added up to this: 15 seconds + 1 gun + 30 round magazine + 1 mentally ill gunman= 6 dead + 11 injured. The article also used a pistol image with the numbers inside of how many gun deaths per year, how many children a year die from guns, etc. It is an effective image making the numbers easier to see and understand.




2 PA teens + 1 gun stolen from employee at training center=stupidity of teacher holding permit to carry license=teens taking gun to school + employee fired= potential shooting averted= students in detention center...

New Mexico + no reporting of mental health records=1 of 10 states not reporting mental health records to FBI=potential Jared Loughners with Glock 19 + potential more mass shootings...

1 Canadian drug and gun hustler + easy access to American guns= contributing to more gun sales, more gun crimes and more murders in Canada from American guns...

2400 guns seized in Mexico in 2007 traced to U.S.+1800 traced to border state gun dealers=6000 Mexican deaths ( not all of these deaths due directly to U.S. guns but evidence of guns coming from U.S. most certainly have contributed)...

33 states allowing private gun sales at gun shows without background checks+felons, adjudicated mentally ill people, domestic abusers, drug abusers, and others who are prohibited=guns available to prohibited purchasers +potential gun deaths and injuries...

  • 32 gun murders a day + 48  firearm suicides= 80 dead in one day in the U.S. Oh yes, I forgot the accidental gun deaths= about 2 per day.
  • 31,224 killed + 66,769 injured and survived= 98,093 affected by gunshot injuries in one year. ( 2007 numbers)...
  • 1/8/11= 16 (15)seconds + 32 bullets...
  • Cost of 9 millimeter bullets + 22 cents per bullet= 32 bullets x .22 cents=$7.04 + 6 dead and 11 injured by bullets from Glock 19 with said bullets...
1 angry and depressed former brother-in-law + difficult divorce+ guns and ammo= no sister for me...


For me the numbers add up to too many people dying every day from gunshot wounds. For me the numbers add up to too many families affected by the sadness and grief of gun violence. For me the numbers add up to the necessity for us all to move forward towards stopping the shootings.The NRA numbers do not add up to prevention or reduction of shootings. The logic and arguments used by the NRA strain credulity and should not be allowed to sit unchallenged. One only has to look closely at what they are saying to discover how illogical they actually are. Common sense tells us that the numbers of the NRA don't add up. 


And P.S.- as I am watching the amazing scene on the streets of Cairo after Egyptian President Mubarek stepped down, it is important to note that this has been a peaceful process, for the most part. The crowds are not armed and that has been noted by some of the media. Guns are not needed when people are involved in peaceful protests. Just imagine for a minute, if NRA V.P. Wayne LaPierre had his way, that all of the Egyptian protesters were armed. There would likely be celebratory gun fire, resulting in certain injuries or maybe even death. There may be armed people who decided to act on their anger and frustration by opening fire on the military or others in the Tahrir Square. Think about guns getting jostled or perhaps taken from holsters or falling out of holsters or pants in the crush of humanity. It's absolutely ridiculous to assume that having armed protesters would have made those protesters safer. What I am seeing are jubilant Egyptians, proud of what they have accomplished and not feeling a need for guns to have accomplished this incredible historical change. The word peace and peaceful keeps coming up from the media. It is contagious. What a difference it would be with guns.

30 comments:

  1. "Here's another one. The Florida "Shoot First" law+ armed midnight blogger=murder of 18 year old. The Florida "Shoot First" law + paranoia and no need for evidence= getting away with murder."

    Shooting an assailant in self-defense is not murder.

    "The night of the shooting, Mustelier had walked to the Beverage King on Waters Avenue with a 16-year-old friend. On their way, they passed Baker. Mustelier told the friend he planned to rob Baker, according to the Sheriff's Office report.

    After going to the store, they passed Baker again, and Mustelier said, "I'm gonna knock him out," according to the report.

    That's when Mustelier lunged at Baker, swinging his fists, the report states.

    The 16-year-old told detectives that Baker responded, "You wanna play games? You wanna play games?"

    Baker said he was punched in the face. His lip was cut and his vision blurred, he told detectives.

    That's when he grabbed his gun, he said in the recorded interview."

    And there is simply no rational basis for the idea that he was not fully justified in doing so.

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  2. GMC70 says:

    japete - the plural of anecdote is not "data."

    It's random noise.

    THIS is what actual data looks like:

    According to the National Self Defense Survey conducted by Florida State University criminologists in 1994, the rate of Defensive Gun Uses can be projected nationwide to approximately 2.5 million per year -- one Defensive Gun Use every 13 seconds.

    Among 15.7% of gun defenders interviewed nationwide during The National Self Defense Survey, the defender believed that someone "almost certainly" would have died had the gun not been used for protection -- a life saved by a privately held gun about once every 1.3 minutes. (In another 14.2% cases, the defender believed someone "probably" would have died if the gun hadn't been used in defense.)

    In 83.5% of these successful gun defenses, the attacker either threatened or used force first -- disproving the myth that having a gun available for defense wouldn't make any difference.

    In 91.7% of these incidents the defensive use of a gun did not wound or kill the criminal attacker (and the gun defense wouldn't be called "newsworthy" by newspaper or TV news editors). In 64.2% of these gun-defense cases, the police learned of the defense, which means that the media could also find out and report on them if they chose to.

    In 73.4% of these gun-defense incidents, the attacker was a stranger to the intended victim. (Defenses against a family member or intimate were rare -- well under 10%.) This disproves the myth that a gun kept for defense will most likely be used against a family member or someone you love.

    In over half of these gun defense incidents, the defender was facing two or more attackers -- and three or more attackers in over a quarter of these cases. (No means of defense other than a firearm -- martial arts, pepper spray, or stun guns -- gives a potential victim a decent chance of getting away uninjured when facing multiple attackers.)

    In 79.7% of these gun defenses, the defender used a concealable handgun. A quarter of the gun defenses occured in places away from the defender's home.


    Source: "Armed Resistance to Crime: The Prevalence and Nature of Self-Defense with a Gun," by Gary Kleck and Marc Gertz, in The Journal of Criminal Law & Criminology, Northwestern University School of Law, Volume 86, Number 1, Fall, 1995



    Facts are funny things, huh?

    "Gun Control" is the idea that a rape victim lying strangled with her own pantyhose in the alley is somehow morally superior to that same woman explaining to police how her attacker got those fatal bullet holes. That's a position I cannot accept.

    How you folks advocate victim disarmament and then sleep at night is beyond me.

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  3. " 1994, the rate of Defensive Gun Uses can be projected nationwide to approximately 2.5 million per year -- one Defensive Gun Use every 13 seconds. " It's a little old now. But these "facts" are not what they seem. People who simply brandish a gun think of it as self defense with a gun. These reports come from anecdotal evidence from people interviewed about what they say about using guns in self defense. I don't believe there has been a good scientific study about these numbers. As I have said before, if the numbers were that high, it would make the news. We just aren't seeing it.

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  4. Japete: Regarding the editorial you referenced in your first paragraph, would you care to comment on the recent developments in the 'project Gun-walker' scandal in light of recent developments? Specifically the fact that Eric Holder of the DOJ intervened and told an told an investigating US Senator to stop asking questions of the ATF, and said Senator's reply (link to PDF's below).

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/48549160/RosettaStone

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  5. "And P.S.- as I am watching the amazing scene on the streets of Cairo after Egyptian President Mubarek stepped down, it is important to note that this has been a peaceful process, for the most part."

    You have a low standard for peace. Throwing rocks, molotov cocktails, and beating up journalists is not peaceful by any measure.

    "Just imagine for a minute, if NRA V.P. Wayne LaPierre had his way, that all of the Egyptian protesters were armed."

    Mubarak would have been out 29 years ago.

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  6. I understand that the 35,000 sounds like a lot of members when the Brady Campaign seems to have only 50,000 members/donators. I think the NRA is approaching 4,000,000

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  7. Dear Words,

    I have not seen this letter and don't know much about what is contained therein. I have no comment at this point since I have not had time to study it well. It sounds like some things are amiss one way or the other. If there was a cover-up, it should be exposed for what it is. At this point, allegations have been made. Let's hope the truth comes out.

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  8. GMC70 says:

    japete wrote: People who simply brandish a gun think of it as self defense with a gun. These reports come from anecdotal evidence from people interviewed about what they say about using guns in self defense. I don't believe there has been a good scientific study about these numbers. As I have said before, if the numbers were that high, it would make the news. We just aren't seeing it.

    Really? This is quite possibly the stupidest thing you've written here.

    Hell - I know why it doesn't make the news - it doesn't fit the preferred narrative. You assume the "news" is neutral; I'm not that naive.

    More to the point - if I am assaulted, draw my weapon in defense, and the mere appearance of the weapon causes my assailant to withdraw and cease his attack, I'd call that a VERY successful gun defense. No shot fired, no one hurt, and probably no police report.

    And thus, in part, the "no news" you lament. No bleed, no lead, as they say.0

    Would you prefer I go ahead and shoot as he's retreating? Really? No thanks; I'd prefer to not fire my weapon at all. But I damn sure won't give it up, or permit the likes of you to dictate what weapon I find suits my needs best.

    As to studies, how 'bout this one:

    Marvin Wolfgang, the late Director of the Sellin Center for Studies in Criminology and Criminal Law at the University of Pennsylvania, considered by many to be the foremost criminologist in the country, wrote in The Journal of Criminal Law & Criminology, Northwestern University School of Law, Volume 86, Number 1, Fall, 1995:

    "I am as strong a gun-control advocate as can be found among the criminologists in this country. If I were Mustapha Mond of Brave New World, I would eliminate all guns from the civilian population and maybe even from the police ... What troubles me is the article by Gary Kleck and Marc Gertz. ["Armed Resistance to Crime: The Prevalence and Nature of Self-Defense with a Gun," by Gary Kleck and Marc Gertz, published in that same issue of The Journal of Criminal Law & Criminology] The reason I am troubled is that they have provided an almost clear cut case of methodologically sound research in support of something I have theoretically opposed for years, namely, the use of a gun in defense against a criminal perpetrator. ...I have to admit my admiration for the care and caution expressed in this article and this research. Can it be true that about two million instances occur each year in which a gun was used as a defensive measure against crime? It is hard to believe. Yet, it is hard to challenge the data collected. We do not have contrary evidence. The National Crime Victim Survey does not directly contravene this latest survey, nor do the Mauser and Hart Studies. ... the methodological soundness of the current Kleck and Gertz study is clear. I cannot further debate it. ... The Kleck and Gertz study impresses me for the caution the authors exercise and the elaborate nuances they examine methodologically. I do not like their conclusions that having a gun can be useful, but I cannot fault their methodology. They have tried earnestly to meet all objections in advance and have done exceedingly well."

    No studies? Or no studies with results you like . . . .

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  9. Would it have been better if the robber had knocked the jogger (not blogger, BTW... or maybe he is a blogger, I don't know... but he was jogging, not blogging, at the relevant time here) unconscious or beaten him to death before taking his property?

    Would it have been better if the jogger had defended himself (possibly killing the robber) with a rock instead of a gun?

    Is the fact that the robber (presumably) didn't have a gun your primary objection to the jogger's use of a firearm in self-defense?

    Is a robbery-related homicide OK so long as there's no gun involved?

    Is self-defense ever justified, or should a victim just give it up... money, jewelry, car, house, spouse, sex, whatever... and hope the criminal will show some mercy and not beat them senseless or kill them?

    If you'd care to participate, I have twenty-five questions related to self-defense, gun ownership, prohibited possession, licensing, registration, pretty much the whole gamut.

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  10. Yes, as you point out ... people can use freedoms to harm others.

    1 freedom of speech + White Supremecist music = African American man dragged to death behind a pickup truck

    1 freedom of religion + radical Imam's preaching hatred = thousands dead

    1 drug dealer whom the cops know + the 4th and 5th amendments (which keeps them from hounding him) = hundreds of children hooked on drugs.

    And the list goes on and on. But for most American's the 2nd amendment is still an honored and important civil right, and so any laws putting a limitation on it MUST be tested by opposition in the courts. And Mr. LaPierre and the NRA are that opposition. And I'm grateful they are there.

    Do we know what Mr. LaPierre makes? Yup. That's about .25 per NRA member (one quarter). Mr. Helmke, on the other hand, makes about $50k a year, which is more like $1 per member (and what's his victory record like ;-)

    But the bottom line is ... the NRA with LaPierre WINS. With him at the helm we've defeated a return of the AWB, opened up legal carry of firearms to all citizens in 41 states, making sure that in a country full of guns law abiding people enjoy the empowerment of the right to keep and bear arms as much as the criminals ... and passed other truly common sense gun laws as we've rolled back the draconian gun laws of past generations (which clearly did nothing to make us safer, given the fact that homicides have gone down during the whole process).

    Mr. LaPierre is a bit bellicose for my tastes, but he is a freedom fighter, and so long as he keeps winning I'll keep following his banner. My only hope is that someday you realize that he was fighting for your rights as well as mine, and that you will honor him as much as the rest of us do.

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  11. "At this point, allegations have been made. Let's hope the truth comes out."

    Amen.

    Very scary and concerning stuff regardless...

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  12. "And P.S.- as I am watching the amazing scene on the streets of Cairo after Egyptian President Mubarek stepped down, it is important to note that this has been a peaceful process, for the most part."

    Did you really mean that???

    this was peaceful?

    http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/02/10/egypt.dead/
    http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iDjkZbkgt430HX1wqwITvzV86oqA?docId=c5554e0911664dbba3f50be30b06dcb3

    Wow can you believe that? It's estimated that least 300 have been killed.

    Are you going to argue that the AP and CNN are not reliable sources?

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  13. GMC70 says:

    re: the high school student's writing you reference above, where you allege the "gun guys" went "on the attack."

    Have you read the comments? Really? Just what do you define as "on the attack?" There is one commenter who is rather rude, but the rest were quite polite and urged more study and information. Nowhere was there an "attack."

    Your problem, of course, is taht they dared to disagree with the writer. Thus, you define attack as "disagree with," and that can't be tolerated, huh? Perhaps you have the same respect for the 1st Am. as you do the 2nd (i.e. none)?

    How many other fundamental rights do you wish to write out of the Constitution? There's that pesky 4th amendment, of course, we know it interferes with police being able to catch criminals. And the 5th - if we could just make people testify against themselves, and dispense with jury trials and all, think how much safer we'd all be . . . .

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  14. For the most part, the demonstrations have been peaceful by the demonstrators. Some have been killed by the military when they got involved a few days ago. Think what you might, and there have been some deaths for sure, which are always bad, most people know this was a peaceful uprising on the part of the Egyptian people.

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  15. GMC70 says:

    Stephen wrote: Mr. LaPierre is a bit bellicose for my tastes, but he is a freedom fighter, and so long as he keeps winning I'll keep following his banner. My only hope is that someday you realize that he was fighting for your rights as well as mine, and that you will honor him as much as the rest of us do.

    Indeed. Spot on.

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  16. Not sure Wayne LaPierre is fighting for my rights. What he said at CPAC scares me. It probably scares you, too, but in a different way. What he said was absurd. I would not want to be associated with the man in any way.

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  17. I understand that you don't like the rights Mr. LaPierre is fighting for ... but then, during the revolutionary war there were many Americans who fought on the side of England, and during the civil war there were even some African American men who fought on the side of the Confederacy.

    For my part ... Freedom of Religion scares me when the crazy Wiccan lady down the street is around my kids ... but I respect "the right" even if the effects of that right are sometimes very, very negative from my POV. Though I'd not let my kids play over there when I wasn't around anymore than you'd let your kids play at a house with of a gun owner -- at least one who didn't believe in gun safes.

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  18. "Do the many loyal members of the NRA really know about the huge salaries paid to the executives of the organization? Is this O.K. with them?"

    The real problem with executive pay is when they get paid big bucks even when they do a lousy job for their organization.

    I am not in agreement with all of the NRA's positions, but their executives sure seem to have been doing a good job of winning the battles that their membership elected them to fight.

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  19. Btw. "accident while cleaning the gun" is a euphemism for suicide to spare the family the grief. It's almost impossible to do as the first thing you do to clean the gun is open it

    In places where suicide was taboo or heavily stigmatized, the phrase was used to help ease family pain.

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  20. P, I must admit to that being the first time I have heard a gun guy rationalize an accidental discharge while cleaning a gun and try to make it into a suicide.

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  21. Dear readers,

    It does need to be said here that it is not just the salary of Wayne LaPierre we are talking about. Several others in the upper echelon of the organization are making a million or so plus there's the large building and the costs associated. This is not your average non-profit folks. This is a huge corporation operating under the name of a "non-profit".

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  22. You claim to be friends with police and with reasonable gun folks. Ask them about the process of cleaning a gun. It is impossible to clean one without opening the action, which would instantly render it safe.

    If the person who died had any business handling the gun, having a negligent discharge while cleaning is pretty much impossible.

    If the person had an accident instead of committed suicide;

    Children would be spared the knowledge that daddy wanted out of life more than he wanted to be around them.

    Life insurance would pay out more.

    A major religion that calls suicide a "mortal sin" would sometimes refuse to allow members who committed suicide to be buried in accordance to the faith.

    In some cases, suicide voided survivor benefits for the family.

    It prevented or gave the family a shield from, questions which might have been difficult to deal with.

    ReplyDelete
  23. Agreed. Its nearly impossible to have an "accidental" discharge whilst cleaning a firearm.

    Better would be if we trained those people more on the four cardinal rules of gun safety! (Of course thats just a "ploy" by us "Gun Guys"!)

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  24. ...and have you told your "hunting friends" about the UK and Australia yet?

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  25. So then, you guys don't believe anyone can accidentally discharge a gun while cleaning and that these are always suicides? Have you got any proof for that?

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  26. Pat- as you know from what I have published, my gun guy friends are in no way worried about having their guns confiscated. They are simply not paranoid like you guys are.. That is a myth. There are restrictions in both countries but not all guns were "taken" from law abiding citizens.

    " Before someone can buy a firearm, he or she must obtain a Permit To Acquire. The first permit has a mandatory 28-day delay before it is first issued. In some states (e.g. Queensland, Victoria, and New South Wales), this is waived for second and subsequent firearms of the same class. For each firearm a "Genuine Reason" must be given, relating to pest control, hunting, target shooting, or collecting. Self-defense is not accepted as a reason for issuing a licence, even though it may be legal under certain circumstances to use a legally held firearm for self-defense.[2]
    Each firearm in Australia must be registered to the owner by serial number. Some states allow an owner to store or borrow another person's registered firearm of the same category." from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Australia

    I provided similar information about the U.K. in a comment on another post.

    ReplyDelete
  27. "So then, you guys don't believe anyone can accidentally discharge a gun while cleaning and that these are always suicides? Have you got any proof for that?"

    If anyone shoots themselves while cleaning their own gun, tragic though it may be, its their own fault. They weren't treating the gun as if it were loaded, they didn't keep their finger or other objects out of the trigger guard, and they let the muzzle point in their direction. The gun doesn't just point and fire itself at you, these are very deliberate actions.

    I'm not saying it's not possible, but you really have to be zoned out and not paying attention at all to make all those errors in gun handling. It's like if you woke up one morning to go to work and started driving on the wrong side of the road for no reason, it's a very obvious and severe breach of the rules.

    Again it's tragic, and I don't want to sound like I'm just blaming the victim, but more than likely they had a hand in their own deaths, whether it was deliberate or through extreme negligence.

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  28. Ok...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkS2BRoCd2I&feature=player_embedded#

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  29. Scary music, scenes of people marching, mentioning the Jews in Germany- pure NRA propoganda. Dictatorship? Really? The British has been long known for their dictatorship type of government! Same with Australia, of course. Their government also a dictatorship I suppose.

    And then there's this: ( Australian gun laws)
    Before someone can buy a firearm, he or she must obtain a Permit To Acquire. The first permit has a mandatory 28-day delay before it is first issued. In some states (e.g. Queensland, Victoria, and New South Wales), this is waived for second and subsequent firearms of the same class. For each firearm a "Genuine Reason" must be given, relating to pest control, hunting, target shooting, or collecting. Self-defense is not accepted as a reason for issuing a licence, even though it may be legal under certain circumstances to use a legally held firearm for self-defense.[2]
    Each firearm in Australia must be registered to the owner by serial number. Some states allow an owner to store or borrow another person's registered firearm of the same category.

    The U.K. does ban pistols and has among the lowest firearms homicides in the world ( Wikipedia) Also this, to counter the video: " As a result, a limited dispensation was agreed to provide section 5 permits for a limited number of pistol-shooters nominated by British Shooting, which would allow them to train in the UK. A number of permits have been issued and UK training has begun, although following the cuts to the British Shooting budget following the 2008 Olympics, no pistol shooters are funded by British Shooting as part of a strategic funding emphasis on rifle and shotgun." And this, since you guys always bring it up: " Compared with the United States of America, the United Kingdom has a slightly higher total crime rate per capita of approximately 85 per 1000 people, while in the USA it is approximately 80" Also this: " In 2008 The Independent reported that there were 42 gun-related deaths in Great Britain, a 20-year low.[41] However, in late 2009 The Telegraph reported that gun crime had doubled in the last 10 years, with an increase in both firearms offences and deaths. A government spokesman said this increase was a result of a change in reporting practices in 2001 and that gun crime had actually fallen since 2005. Chris Grayling, the Shadow Home Secretary (an opposition party spokesperson), attributed the rise to ineffective policing and an out-of-control gang culture.[42]"

    For all of the anger and bluster in the video, this sure does not seem to be a huge issue in the U.K. or Australia. People seem to be getting along pretty well in their dictatorship governments, and their gun deaths are low. Overall crime may be higher but as far as people getting shot, apparently their laws have worked to lower the rates of gun deaths and also the mass shootings which caused the laws to be relooked at.

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  30. Japete. Cleaning a gun and accidentally killing yourself is pretty much impossible. This is not to say that someone may kill himself while sittin at a table covered in cleaning supplies so as to provide a cover for their actions. But during the actual act of cleaning a gun, it is impossible.

    When I was a child, my father was called to a house to check on the welfare of a member of the church. We were all in the car in the driveway when the police car and ambulance showed up. When the body was rolled out I was only able to see that he had one shoe on, and one shoe off.

    Later I read in a paper that he had died of a accidental GSW while cleaning his gun. My father had told my mother that "mr Smith" had ended it. So I knew he had committed suicide and understood why he only had one shoe on, but i asked why the paper said accident and I had it explained to me that suicide had such a stigma that it was believed to be kinder to the family to call it an accident.

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